| Author |
Topic: Issue 2 annotations. (Vol. 2, on with
the spoilers.) |
Mystery
Gypt
Operative |
 posted March 05, 2000 11:22 AM   
ON: whether ragnorok happened already or in the future, + living in
the time frozen agony of Christ, + the dovetail with PK Dick, +
humans seen outside of time:
"the Empire never ended"
i love how that's a description of the present in purely the past
tense.
|
sleazenation
Operative
|
posted March 05, 2000 12:04 PM
"initiation never ends"
|
rory
Operative
|
posted March 05, 2000 12:07 PM
Podge: This issue was about the annihilation of opposites. And also
the individual realising their unified state.
So in that respect Jolly Rodger being dumped in a unmarked mass
grave is appropriate.
Her differences would usually set her apart from society: y'know
-- a freedom fighting, eyepatched, gray haired lesbo kind of sets
her apart. So in the annihilation of opposites, she is treated the
same as the other 'straight' people who were also dumped in the
grave. That's what I thought anyway. Your bit about her just being a
suit used for the experience, which is now over and hence the suit
is dumped is probably a better reading of the situation though. I
think any kind of attempt to recover her body would have been
strange and not in keping with the magical dreamlike vibe to the
Invisible Kingdom Arc.
Loz: As for Jack going through the mirror - it's the same
occasion as in Black Science 2 and the House of Fun - each time,
he's become more aware of what was happening and remembered more of
his experience. The fact that he was confronted by a jesus type
figure in House of Fun leads me to believe Chessplayer is not only
Satan but also Jesus.
Or maybe Hermes the messenger.
Someone else with superior theological learning could probably
clarify this.
[This message has been edited by rory (edited March 05,
2000).]
|
grant
Operative
|
posted March 05, 2000 06:16 PM
If the other side of the mirror is outside time, than in some way
the same thing is always happening there no matter which time you
enter the dimension at.
The other side of the mirror IS
initiation.
You might as well call the Chessman Prometheus, too. That figure
which opposes the order to bring light. The sneaky bastard from
beyond the beginning of things.
|
Mystery
Gypt
Operative |
posted March 05, 2000 08:02 PM
yeah intiation never ends being taken to the most extreme measure in
jack's continual return to the same "moment" outside of time where
he is initiated into the secret of the universe. in our world, he is
continually being initiated, because he remembers more of the
experience each time (try to remember) but outside of time the
entire intiation happens at once.
i guess that means the scenes outside of time seen in sequential
order are always memories, pieced together by jack in reality. which
is why it was so hard for him to remember them the first time, in
black science.
and why it is especially hard for the uninitiated to remember,
ever.
|
levon
Operative
|
posted March 05, 2000 08:59 PM
Also: Satan = Lucifer the lightbringer. It's interesting how similar
his role is to the Candlemaker in Doom Patrol, who also plays in
opposition to the main characters but simultaneously brings truth
and enlightenment into their lives. I also recall the candlemaker
believing he was Jesus? maybe someone has their old DP issues with
them and can check?
[This message has been edited by levon (edited March 05,
2000).]
|
Lionheart
Operative
|
posted March 06, 2000 03:20 AM
The girl on the cover is Helga. In the story she becomes Gideon's
companion.
And who the hell is Bobby?
Oh, and it seems to me that the FUCK U. girl represents duality
unified.
Just my sub-concious leaking.
-=Lionheart=-
|
Podge
Dirkins
Operative
|
posted March 06, 2000 09:53 AM
You know rory, what you've pointed out re: Jack crossing the mirror
to the other side at the end of all three volumes really fits with
one way I find myself looking at the series. I think I mentioned
this way back in my first post.
All three volumes tell the same story, they're just different
iterations of that cycle. All three finales are the same finale, but
seen different ways. Through the filter of Grant's illness in Volume
1 (hence all the sickness/health duality), through the filter of
popAmericana in Volume 2 (violence and material excess and the
cinema and the subversion of each: Mob and Robin reacting to an
invisible enemy in Scorpio Rising moreso than anyone with a gun in
the entire volume; Mob freeing Mason from his home and wealth; Robin
fucking with the story logic in the ubiquitous sequel to Black
Science -- give 'em more of what they want, and then show them why
they shouldn't be satisfied with it), and through the largely
metaphysical and metaphorical filter in Volume 3 (the annihilation
of all illusion and analogy: right/wrong, good/evil, I/you,
meaning/meaninglessness).
It's the same sequence, played out three ways. Grant steps
through the iterations, foreshortening it until everything cancels
out, like a complex equation, 'til both sides of the equal sign are
blank and we can erase even that and begin anew with Issue 1, the
next and most exciting iteration. Free from all previous trappings
to be something entirely different. Sloughing off all the maggot
baggage and becoming the fly indeed. Or perhaps a butterfly.
|
rory
Operative
|
posted March 06, 2000 01:12 PM
Nicely put!
As for the chessman being prometheus - that makes sense when you
consider this (it also makes sense in loads of other ways but this
is interesting, too):
McGowan is an Irish/Scots name which means son of the blacksmith.
So this in efect means Dane is the offspring of the creator who
may or may not be the Chessplayer.
As an aside: Gow and Gowan is Gaelic for smith or blacksmith and
many persecuted Irish and Scots changed their name to Smith during
the time of the famines and the highland clearances.
|
Zenkidu
Initiate
|
posted March 06, 2000 03:57 PM
BAJ wrote:
"We've never seen the Invisible College from here before. We're
behind it and there's a river with a bridge and the general ambience
is of dreaming spires and scholarly evenings."
Jesus.
I've been feeling kinda depressed recently (combination of shit
job, illness, not getting enough exercise): kinda of prejudices my
reactions to 3.2.
Anyway, lots of nice stuff (esp. Roger darting Sir Miles with Key
23, and the ending with Jack) but brought down by being too rushed
and disjointed (my feeling about Vol 3 in general) and mostly badly
drawn.
Thought it was okay. Just okay.
But, fucking hell. Although I can understand that Wood struggled
to draw Grant's 'new cosmology' (time-larvae stretching and coiling
four-dimensionally into the past and future) how did he fuck up with
the Invisible College? It's not like he didn't have any points of
reference.
"Spires and scholarly evenings" my arse.
Lazy, lazy, lazy.
Zenkidu
[This message has been edited by Zenkidu (edited March 06,
2000).]
|
doubting
thomas
Initiate
|
posted March 06, 2000 05:20 PM
"This'll be a clunky segue from the ever-classy and heady Jackie,
but was anyone else left cold by Roger getting dumped in the mass
grave?"
--Podge Dirkins
Maybe it bothered me so I rationalized it... and I've only read
#2 twice, which I don't think is sufficient to have figured it out.
But around this point in the comic, it felt like Jack was standing
on the street corner where the Eternal Deathcamp was on his left and
the LuvLuvLuv Karmageddon Party Eternal was on his right... The mass
graves were part of the Machineland doing its business, and weren't
*entirely* real... But I also have a cold.
|
cmsof
Initiate
|
posted March 06, 2000 09:38 PM
Hey. I'm new here and was scanning the posts for Vol.3, Iss.1 and
thought of something that may or may not have been addressed
concerning Bobby and Audrey Murray and the connection with King
Mob/The Invisibles. Obviously, there is some connection between
Bobby and Edith (as evidenced by Vol. 1, Iss. 12 when Bobby says,
"Edith says to call him Boody." and Vol. 2, Iss. 10). It seems more
than a coincidence, then, that Audrey helps KM when he is shot. What
the connection is, I'm not sure, but I'm sure there is one.
|
cmsof
Initiate
|
posted March 06, 2000 09:49 PM
In regards to Ashley Wood not pulling off the climactic scene from
many posts ago: What did anyone expect? Has anyone seen his art in
other books? The Spawn annual: huh? Shadowman: huh? He good at the
scratchy, what the hell is that? kind of art, but completely wrong
for this book. A valiant experiment, but not a successful
one.
|
Broad Arrow
Jack
Myrmidon |
posted March 06, 2000 09:51 PM
cmsof: Yeah, it's been addressed. Scan through this thread and have
a look for October Ghost's thoughts on the KM/Audrey connection -
specifically the part when he refers to it as being like a chess
game. He's put it better than I ever could.
|
cmsof
Initiate
|
posted March 06, 2000 10:06 PM
So what October Ghost is saying (if you'll allow me to probably
mangle his/her words) is that Bobby was sacrificed so that King Mob
could be saved by Audrey. I can see that, but I'm still not clear
what Edith's part in the whole thing was. I'm going to re-read the
series after 3.1 comes out, so maybe I'll pick it up then. Thanks
for listening.
|
Fad23
Initiate
|
posted March 08, 2000 12:18 AM
I hope this thread will be up for long enough that I'll have time to
read it all.
Did anyone else wonder whose head Robin was premonitioning about?
Way back in v1... Or is that, like the Train, something long lost?
I'm in a library now and there's a crazy dude moaning behind me.
Should I listen to him?
|
Citizen
Smith
Operative
|
posted March 08, 2000 12:20 AM
Don't just listen, tell us what he's saying.
|
Broad Arrow
Jack
Myrmidon |
posted March 08, 2000 12:25 AM
Fad23: As far as the head goes, I'm assuming you're referring to the
broken mannequin head that Boy kicks into Robin's lap. She's holding
on to it and says "Deja Vu."
In Volume 1, issue 24, at the climax of the House Of Fun
storyline, a broken and dying King Mob lies with his head in Robin's
lap, and she says "That's so weird...I've done this before..." in
reference to her deja vu with the bald mannequin head.
Hope that helps, if that's indeed what you were asking
about.
|
Fad23
Initiate
|
posted March 08, 2000 09:27 PM
Yes, thanks. That's it completely. It's been a while since I read
V1, but I can now rest easy.
|
Fad23
Initiate
|
posted March 09, 2000 04:14 AM
Now I remeber, I thought KM was really gonna get it after the house
of tears. That's why I was confused!
|
watsonwear
Operative
|
posted March 12, 2000 06:19 PM
BAJ: Are you sure that those two instances of Robin feeling deja vu
over holding a head does not in fact refer to something to come in
no 3:1?
| |
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