| Author |
Topic: Issue 2 annotations. (Vol. 2, on with
the spoilers.) |
louisemichel
Operative
|
 posted March 03, 2000 06:48 PM   
I still don't know what to think about the issue... I'm confused,
too much things are still unresolved, so we'll have to wait till
issue 1 whether to be pleased or to cry.
But...
I'd like to
say (I'm not the first and I'll not be the last) : BAJ, you rules,
man !
Really !
Anybody want to petition for a special issue, pencilled by BAJ,
animated Invisibles style ?
This would be great terrorism, an
Invisibles issue for kids...
Let's fuck their 8 years old
brain...
Anyway, BAJ, you rocked !
Now, if we could have the whole scripts for the 3 volumes, it
would be nice. If all the issues are as hacked as the last, I, for
one, would like to read the REAL story.
I'd like to add that in France, the penciler draws what's on the
script and doesn't chicken out like most of last issue's pencilers.
Even if the writer asks for a high angle shot of 100 people and a
train in a railway station.
I know, I wrote it once...
That's
why we're about 6 times slower than our US counterparts when a
comics need to be done.
|
Broad Arrow
Jack
Myrmidon |
posted March 03, 2000 06:55 PM
Well, that's what I've always admired about Euro comics - they're
not rushed out to meet a ridiculous monthly schedule, and there's
real craftsmanship there.
Oh, to have seen Juilliard or Berthet draw some
Invisibles...
|
asterisk
Initiate
|
posted March 03, 2000 07:16 PM
<<Now, if we could have the whole scripts for the 3 volumes,
it would be nice. If all the issues are as hacked as the last, I,
for one, would like to read the REAL story.>>
After this issue I was wondering the same thing. How much was
lost to misunderstanding, miscommunication, or just plain laziness.
They would make a nice read unto themselves.
Baj, your artwork was quite refreshing compared with the rest of
this issue. It reminds me of a cross between the DC's Animated style
and Michael Lark, who I've always enjoyed. Keep up the good
work.
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Nermin
Operative
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posted March 03, 2000 08:00 PM
Absolutely right Jack.Julliard would have truly made Invisibles
a masterpiece then.
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Nermin
Operative
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posted March 03, 2000 08:00 PM
Absolutely right Jack.Julliard would have truly made Invisibles
a masterpiece then.
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louisemichel
Operative
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posted March 03, 2000 08:03 PM
oh yes, Juillard !
Well, we're probably the only two to
understand that, BAJ, so...
(ok, three, hi, Nermin ! )
About the scripts, how can we get them ?
I found once 5 animal
man scripts and 5 doom patrol scripts, all Grant Morrison area of
course, so the scripts eventually show up.
Let's speed the
process : Who has the fucking scripts ? Answer !
Thanks. 
[This message has been edited by louisemichel (edited March 03,
2000).]
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Twig the
Wonder Kid
Operative
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posted March 03, 2000 08:15 PM
Yeah, I thought Lark too. And I love that Lark guy.
The comic only came out yesterday and already were running to
four pages. Most of it's been said already but there are a few
points I've got to add.
First I've gotta say that, once again, I'm going against popular
opinion but then, hey, that's what I'm here for. I loved the issue
and was quite satisfied with the resolution. I want it left
unexplained. I want the world where everyone is happy, where
everyone's theories are valid. There were art 'problems' but I can
live with that. I was incredibly stoned when first read it so my
first impression was that it was, like, the best comic I've ever
read, man. But she's not so bad looking the morning after either.
The cover - There is definately a photo-real newborn baby in the
mix there. Iím presuming this is our first glimpse of KM and Robin
junior.
Page 4 - This Pennington, Rossiter, ëYouíre all the
sameí thing. This has been confusing the hell out of me. I canít
tell the difference between any of Mileís posse. Have we seen
Pennington in this volume? Are Rossiter and Tarquin the same person?
I suppose heís making a valid point about the inter-changeability of
Civil Servants and how in the end it doesnít really matter. But,
hanging with indistinguishable clones, you can understand why Miles
goes postal.
Page 7 - Miles is dosed with Key 23 and drowned in vague one word
concepts. This of course means we could, if we chose, interpret the
rest of story from this point on as Milesís Key 23 trip. Assuming of
course that the story so far hasnít just been Milesís LSD overdose
back in the 60ís.
Page 8/9 - BAJ you astound me. These pages and the final page
with GM really stand two steps above the rest of the art in this
issue, even Buckingham and Ormston. And Iím not just saying that
because I want to sleep with you.
John = Jack. Jack = John. Seems obvious in retrospect, Jack being
an alternative iteration of John anyway. ëSatanstormí makes a lot
more sense now seeing as it was JAD they were trying to rescue from
underneath his miriad of cover personalities. This reminds me of
Borgesís concept of immortality, that an immortal by his/her nature
must be everyone at some time or another. John A Dreams is a complex
structure, he could have been any character in the Invisibles. I
mean, couldnít Boy also be JAD, couldnít any of them... I'm not the
first to say this on the Nexus. Johnís been messing about with time
too, who knows what mischeif he could have been up to.
Page 13 - ìThis is how a human process looks to usî. I love this
wormcast idea. Weíve already seen it illustrated in some panels of
Vol 3 so far. Check out Miles in V3.4.
Page 15 - This still doesnít tell us much about who the
Harlequinade actually ARE.
Page 17 - Surely that's not meant to be KM sloping off down the
alley? I thought it was Roger. She is in the pile of bodies in the
panel above and it looks like she was just coming round.
I canít believe GM didnít kill off ANYONE. Pussy.
Page 18 - A fleeting appearance from Oscar of Cell 23. It doesnít
really tell us anymore about the other cell but itís good to see
they havenít been forgotten.
ìThe new adventures of Division Xî - Mr Six trades in threads for
a sheepskin coat, moves into the second hand car trade. He brings
George along as muscle, to be his ëMinderí if you will. You all know
the rest...
Page 19 - Audreyís back and sheís bought her shopping. Or is that
Daneís Tescoís bag sheís carrying. Maybe we read too much into that
one, it was just groceries left in the locker for Dane by Freddie
back in Vol 1? Hey a boyís gotta eat, messiah or no. What was in the
chocolate box. Easy, chocolates. Daneís just a fat bastard.
Page 20 - KMís passing on the name. Presumably to Helga. This
would make sense judging by the cover. I'd always assumed that was
Helga in V2.7 in the future but it seems I was mistaken.
Page 21 - The name Olga Tannen. Does this mean anything?
Page 22 - Shit, GMís a pretty good artist. And you can just make
out the Nexus symbol. Who was the ìpervert in the weird little
glassesî, another Invisible? the enemy? And that ëFuck-Uí girl is ..
like .. us .. man, yídig. Us who read our weird comics and stuff.
Dane will be coming for us soon. Actually Iím getting on a bit now,
Iíd probably fail the medical. Can I just sit this one out?
|
Devil
Doubt
Initiate
|
posted March 03, 2000 08:16 PM
Well I agree with ya'll, I REALLY liked the last page.
It really bothers me that this is how the series basically ends.
By that I mean, I'd like to have seen a better produced book. I'm
only a Johnny-Come-Lately, but in the last year, I've been on a
frenzy to find, read, and devour anything invisibles related. I can
only imagine how you folks -- some who have been around since 1.1 --
feel about the mis-handled climax.
I thought the Audrey Murray bit was beautiful and poetic.
BAJ- Chin-up. At the very least you got to work with an artist
you admired. That's the important thing -- at least that's how I
feel. I'd give anything to work with some of the musicians and
writers that I admire deeply. Hell, I'd buy another book with your
name on the credits...
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louisemichel
Operative
|
posted March 03, 2000 08:30 PM
BAJ :
Do you know if Frank Quietly is still on the roll for issue
ONE ?
If so, there is still hope for a grand ending !
Because,
just a second, some things are missing, like, what happened in 2012
?
Or did I miss something, somewhere ?
|
Broad Arrow
Jack
Myrmidon |
posted March 03, 2000 08:49 PM
Twig: Yes, that is KM slumping off down the alley. Jolly Roger is
buried in a landfill with the rest of the corpses.
I don't think KM's passed the mantle on to Helga - why else would
she re-assume HER real name?
Frank Quitely has drawn all of issue 1, and I can't bloody wait.
Mystery Gypt's already seen it, the jammy bastard.
Another wee note. On the final page, Jack is meant to be wearing
Sir Miles' Eton tie. It's not drawn like Ridgeway did it (which I
assume is how it's supposed to look), but hey man, I was just inking
what Grant drew...
Incidentally, it might be interesting to show you what Grant's
original pencils looked like, as they really are quite different
from the final version. I don't know if Tom is able to update the
site while he's in LA, but when he gets back I'll send him a copy
for him to post on the Bomb, or something.
|
rory
Operative
|
posted March 03, 2000 09:08 PM
for those sttill fucked off about the 'scooby doo' interaction
between Mrs. Murry and Mr. Mob?
Were you not a little suprised to see Audrey lay flowers for her
departed husband outside the booth where King Mob lay dying?
That's not where Bobby died. Is it?
Course it is/isn't.
The way the time and location caption panels were depicted (large
box flanked by two strips) led me to believe space and time were
doing strange things.
In the end, only one question really need be answered (coz I am
fucked off a bit, too):
How the fuck did the artistic interpretation fuck ups, get
through the editorial stage?
Having met the assistant editor of the title, last november when
I visited DC HQ, I can't say I'm surprised. Basically, the guy was
very nice (he gave me loads of free copies of the Invisibles) but he
didn't seem clued up about what he was working on.(to the degree I'd
expect) He was unaware of the Division X characters being based on
vintage 70's British tv trash icons among other things. Exscusable?
Well, if I was working on a title as rich in pop cultural references
as the Invisibles, I'm sure I'd do my best to piece the fucker
together! I think this kind of attention at editorial level would
lead to such sad oversights such as the eclipse shocker by Ridgeway
(fucking overlapping universes, C'mon, guys!) and the reason we get
to see a sausage tree rather than the secret of the universe.
Oh well.
[This message has been edited by rory (edited March 03,
2000).]
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louisemichel
Operative
|
posted March 03, 2000 09:10 PM
yes !
for Frank Quietly and the original Grant Morrison page
!
And... what ? Mystery Gypt saw the first issue ?
Where ? How
?
Mystery Gypt, where are you ?
Ohhhhhhhhh can't
wait....
(fanboy suit mode again...)
If someone is interested, just for fun, I have Near Myths number
3, which is if I remember well, Gideon Stargrave first appearance,
written and drawn by none other than Grant Morrison.
maybe I can
scan it and mail it to Tom, not for copyright infringement of
course, but for educational purposes...
fanboy suit... I love being me.
|
rory
Operative
|
posted March 03, 2000 09:23 PM
i've got Near Myths 3 as well!
'Are you Gideon Stargrave?'
As often as possible. But you know how it is these days.'
|
Broad Arrow
Jack
Myrmidon |
posted March 03, 2000 09:32 PM
Rory: you're probably referring to Will Dennis (thick southern
accent?), Shelly's assistant, whom I must say is a sterling chap,
ignorance of Division X's cultural origins aside.
I think what a lot of people seem to forget (or even be aware of)
is that for a lot of the people involved with the series, it's just
a job, nothing more. I've always been a huge admirer of Morrison and
his work, and so even though I AM a professional in the field, when
it came to doing the Invisibles I was most certainly a fan first and
a pro second.
But I really don't know how many of the others involved
(excepting Grant of course) approached it with the same rabid
enthusiasm. I suspect for most of them it was a paycheque; which is
not to excuse poor work, but also would explain why they're not
educated in all the minutiae of the series.
The only person, other than myself, that I know of who was a
tremendous fan of the book and actively pursued Shelly Roeberg for a
chance to work on it was, ironically enough, Ashley Wood.
|
Broad Arrow
Jack
Myrmidon |
posted March 03, 2000 09:40 PM
Louisemichel: Mystery Gypt met up with Grant at the DisInfoCon and
got to see the black and whites of issue 1, and I hate him for it.
But he didn't get to read it though.
|
louisemichel
Operative
|
posted March 03, 2000 09:48 PM
That's the time to have instant photographic memory...
Well,
we'll have it in a month or so... let's all wait together !
|
Sandfarmer
Operative
|
posted March 03, 2000 09:51 PM
Oh Ms. Wood.... (yeah I know she's a he)
Okay, enough of that. Hey Fanboy, er I mean louisemichel,
scan, copy whatever you gotta do but I must see that Gideon
Stargrave comic. Stargrave rules.
I have a dream... Gideon Stargrave vs. Division X in a trans-time
trans-continental trans-sexual mini-series adventure drawn by our
pall BAJ. Total pop culture orgasam. Surely Grant could spare the
time to write it, hell with those characters, it should write
itself.
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rory
Operative
|
posted March 04, 2000 12:19 AM
BAj - I didn't really mean to be down on the asssistant editor - he
was really friendly and corteous with me.
Suppose your right about just being a job. I was getting carried
away.
Just read the Invisible Arc as a whole. It is pretty damn good.
The 'Its only a game' spin is still to be revealed.
By the way, the blind chessman is satan and god, right? The
dissolution of opposites represented by one character who freely
hops from one 'side' to another. Like the Manichaen Christ who
manifested as the serpent in paradise.
[This message has been edited by rory (edited March 04,
2000).]
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Ganesha
Myrmidon
|
posted March 04, 2000 12:29 AM
Twig: if you wanna sleep with BAJ for the quality of his Godlike
artwork, you're gonna have to fight me for the privilege...
|
Mystery
Gypt
Operative |
posted March 04, 2000 12:33 AM
Yeah Grant put the fucking b&w xerox in my hand and said go on
and read it.
weirdo that i am, i flipped through it but told him i'd rather
wait until it came out, and read it after the penultimate (i know i
know. sounds retarded.)
but i will tell you this -- it doesn't look like it will
necessarily "answer all the questions" everybody had about
continuity, but it does look like an incredible, georgeous, elegant
way to go out. not with a bang but a flourish. it looks like an
entirely different comic, actually, and in fact it IS and entirely
different comic...
(heh)
[This message has been edited by Mystery Gypt (edited March 04,
2000).]
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rory
Operative
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posted March 04, 2000 12:40 AM
I was thinking it might be.
That cover too. v.wierd.
definitely not pre-jack!
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Sandfarmer
Operative
|
posted March 04, 2000 01:09 AM
Well, I'm excited about it.
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grant
Operative
|
posted March 04, 2000 05:08 AM
RE: page 4.
The Rossiter/Pennington thing *could* just be a
clever way to cover up previous errors in continuity, but it's also
a keen way to attack the idea of individuality, which is what the
Outer Church stands against.
|
Broad Arrow
Jack
Myrmidon |
posted March 04, 2000 05:22 AM
Much earlier in this thread, someone mentioned that they were
confused by Miles' statement on page 5, that the Shadow King was
helping the Invisibles.
I'm pretty sure that this line ("He helped them. He's always been
one of them.") is in reference to Rossiter. He's addressing the
soldiers ("What are you all gawking at?"), who just watched him gun
down his own assistant...
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hadalis
Operative
|
posted March 04, 2000 05:45 AM
BAJ, echoing everyone here when I say that I loved your art. Loved
the renditions of Fanny, John A'Dreams, and that final scene -
priceless.
Everything else (excluding your work, of course)was a bit smelly.
Ramiel: Gideon may live, but King Mob didn't die. He has
ceremoniously passed on to us, the reading public, to assume his
name and his cause. (Gideon: "Someone else can have the
name...").
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louisemichel
Operative
|
posted March 04, 2000 08:33 AM
hadalis :
Yes, that and the fact that Dane gives the blank badge
to us, the readers.
Maybe there will be lots of King Mob
everywhere ! Cool !
The next few monthes should provide a highly
unusual start to the century...
(ok, shameless plagiarism)
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Loz
Operative
|
posted March 04, 2000 08:43 AM
And my (possibly) final thoughts on the matter? This is precisely
what I feared would happen when, back in 2.14, Grant explained how
he'd taken on far too much work and was having to reorder things to
cope.
Shit, it's not like 'The Invisibles' was a long held dream
project or anything...
Hmmm, perhaps you should ignore that last sentence, unnecessarily
bitchy...
|
Liquid
Operative
|
posted March 04, 2000 11:54 AM
Come on, cheer up everybody! This wasn't the last issue! We still
have one more to go, the big finale! And it's gonna be drawn by
Frank Quitely!
Sure maybe it won't answer all our questions, but isn't that a
good thing? Do yuo really want it all spelled out for you? It's the
mystery that wil keep us searching for more of these Invisible
things in our lives.
I have a tremendous amount of faith in the next issue. This
series is still number 1 in my book
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rory
Operative
|
posted March 04, 2000 12:07 PM
I just seen a KFC advert.
The bloke in the white suit and who carrys a cane - he advertises
their produce.
looks like John A Dreams to me.
|
Gentleman
Assassin
Operative
|
posted March 04, 2000 02:26 PM
Colonel Sanders??
'Oooh, I hated the Colonel, with his wee beady
eyes, and that smug look on his face: "Oh, you're gonna buy my
chicken, Ohh!"'
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jaybabcock
Initiate
|
posted March 04, 2000 07:27 PM
grant, with a big grin, showed me the same B+W copy of 3.1 here in
L.A. about a week ago that mystery G saw in NYC....i read some of
it... not gonna go into much detail here, but in case you're
wondering: the part I looked at was set in "the future," the artwork
is incredible (better than Earth 2, maybe as good as Flex Mentallo)
and the writing is quite dense--very reminiscent of the "Policemen"
story that ran in Vertigo Winter's Edge a while back.
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jaybabcock
Initiate
|
posted March 04, 2000 07:32 PM
also, and to be admittedly cryptic, if you're curious about what
Grant's gonna do next (besides Marvel Boy, the novel, etc.) -- i'd
suggest watching The Magic Christian again...
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louisemichel
Operative
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posted March 04, 2000 07:40 PM
ok. You're cryptic.
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Jackie
Susann
Myrmidon
|
posted March 04, 2000 10:03 PM
About Gideon "passing on" the name and "everything that goes with
it", I don't think he's just blithely chucking it to the readers.
Considering the emphasis on the power of magical names, think of the
history: not just Gideon shot and dying in a phone booth or tortured
by Miles, or an earlier KM dying in Spain, but the avant-garde
street kids of the 60s and the riots hundreds of years ago where the
newly formed working class revolted against their subjection,
signing their demands and claiming their authority came from King
Mob. It almost makes me think KM could have been a code name we all
used for a while, and I think the history dovetails nicely with the
ideas about humans seen from "outside". Here's King Mob, growing in
time through centuries of dissent and disobedience, shedding his ego
scaffolding in a phone box; if that isn't cause for "ontological
terror", I don't know what is. So yes, we are all King Mob, but
don't think it's just a name or something cool to graffiti on cop
cars.
Second, Six's "The age of Osiris and Christ is over", etc., made
me think of a quote from David Tibet:
What most fascinates me in post-Gnostic Christianity is the idea
that when Christ was crucified time actually stopped and that real
time, in as far as it has any meaning, has been frozen, and that
we're living through the death throes of Christ. As soon as Christ
has died on the Cross the world is ended, so that in a way as soon
as the first nails were knocked in, time itself stopped and the last
few seconds or minutes or hours of Christ's agony, everything that's
happened since the nailing happens in that frozen moment in time.
Glitterdammerung is a pun on the German "gotterdammerung". I'm
not sure what the literal translation is but it's an opera by Wagner
and refers to the final stages of WW2 in Europe - in particular, I
think, to an alleged Nazi plan to exterminate the populations of the
countries they'd taken.
And I'll add that I think this issue was great, give or take
Ashley Wood. And yeah, BAJ, your bits were the best.
|
sleazenation
Operative
|
posted March 04, 2000 10:26 PM
Gotterdammerung is sometimes translated as 'twilight of the gods' or
more usually as ragnarok a time of great change where much of the
past will be destroyed to make way for the new.
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shrove
Initiate
|
posted March 04, 2000 10:33 PM
this is the first time ive posted anything here,(or anywhere for
that matter.I have been reading the invisibles from the begining and
it has changed me(for the better or worse is debatable but i think
for the better.i have not read #2 yet we dont get it till march 8 in
Atlanta.so i have not read the latest post but i cant wait till i
have. I wish i hade found this site sooner.looking forward to
meeting many of you soon D.
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grant
Operative
|
posted March 05, 2000 06:22 AM
Welcome shrove, and word up on the gotterdammerfungus.
It's when Fenris breaks out, the giants tromp the gods, and I
think only Thor's son survives. The End of Time.
Although
according to close reading of the Norse/Teutons, it's hard to say if
it's already happened or will be happening in the future exactly as
written.
In other words we may or may not be living after the
end of history.
Oh, and that's a kick ass quote about time. Ties in with that PK
Dick essay I was reading a couple weeks ago.
[This message has been edited by grant (edited March 05,
2000).]
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Jackie
Susann
Myrmidon
|
posted March 05, 2000 07:25 AM
And "Twilight of the Gods" was also the name of the JLA issue during
Rock of Ages where the heroes in 2012 helped prepare the way for the
universe to be converted into pure energy and remade. And it works
nicely as an allusion to Nietzsche's "Twilight of the Idols", which
in "Ecce Homo" he summarises like so:
This "is the exception among books: there exists nothing more
rich in substance, more independent, more overthrowing - more
wicked. If you want to get a quick idea of how everything was
upsidedown before me, make a start with this writing. That which is
called *idol* on the title-page is quite simply that which has
hitherto been called truth. *Twilight of the Idols* - in plain
terms: the old truth is coming to an end..."
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Podge
Dirkins
Operative
|
posted March 05, 2000 09:59 AM
This'll be a clunky segue from the ever-classy and heady Jackie, but
was anyone else left cold by Roger getting dumped in the mass grave?
I mean, wouldn't Dane have scooped her out at least? Or is this
indifference to the corpses a result of recognising their transient
and meaningless status as mere suits? I assume Flint and the Guvnor
got tossed in the pit, too, then. Awr, fahk. It just bugged me.
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Loz
Operative
|
posted March 05, 2000 10:42 AM
I'm a bit confused by Jack going through the mirror. Does he go
through to meet the Chess-Playing Bastard again, or is that a
continuation of when they met in Dulce at the end of volume 2 or are
they both the same meeting? If they are the same meeting, where did
he go on whichever trip Grant hasn't shown us?
| |
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