| Author |
Topic: Do we fight? |
70sman
Operative |
posted November 23, 1999 02:00 PM
  
I enjoyed the 1000 cats story a lot.
it was sort of like one of
those "modern fairy tales" but , amazingly , wasnt a load of old
shite. Its a good example of what Gaiman can do when he's not being
"awesome" (ie pretentious.)
|
rakehell
Initiate |
posted November 24, 1999 12:14 PM
No number nun. Better to sit and be oh! so cool and jaded, yeah? I'm
sure cynicism will change the world, it's done wonders already. 
|
Twig the Wonder Kid
Operative |
posted November 24, 1999 06:35 PM
Cynicism has only changed the way the world is advertised.
|
PATricky
Operative |
posted November 26, 1999 01:26 AM
Interesting point Twig.
But isn'that the point, whether it's Gaiman or Mason's "planet
Hollywood" hoax.
we as a culture have grown pasive in our interaction with a world
"we" see as more & more alien to us. One dare not venture out
into the wilderness with out there SUV!!! "big Business" and private
interests have become the major stake holders in sculpting the
generally agreed upon reality & of course as a result that
concencus is becoming more and more out of joint with the worldz as
we knew it to be.
I did like the 1000 cats by the way . . . nothing major but if
critics want to acclaim it . . . good for them. I'ld rather hear
that than some crittic cutting a given work to shit!!!
|
Twig the Wonder Kid
Operative |
posted November 26, 1999 05:59 AM
It ties in with the rant I contributed to another thread somewhere
on the Nexus, about Capitalism now wanting to suck my cock because
I'm in their ideal target market.
I believe mine (I won't make any assumptions about peoples ages
on this board) is a cynical generation, far beyond the teenage
cynicism everyone goes through. It's just another biproduct of the
'seen it all before' aspect of post-modernism. And so to target our
generation advertisers are attempting to come across all knowing and
cynical hoping we'll relate (whereas in fact, as is usual in
advertising, we just feel patronised).
But sometimes it works too.
It's very difficult to be truly cynical nowadays. There's so many
layers of reverse psychology involved in Groucho's 'I don't wanna
join any club that'd have me as a member'. Do you find yourself put
off by being targetted by the big scary capitalists or do you find
it flattering?
|
Ganesha
Myrmidon |
posted November 26, 1999 08:40 AM
The 'passive interaction' thing is interesting, and ties in with the
fact that widespread fears of 'paedophiles' and so on have seen
parents effectively restrict kids to the house. We're breeding a
generation of fat, housebound kids whose interaction with the world
stems from Playstation (never underestimate its power) and, ahem,
the Net.
Re: 'Dream of 1000 Cats'; I certainly wasn't about to start
savaging Gaiman. I just think it's odd that this particular issue of
Sandman should attract such high critical acclaim, when it's
basically a cute 'talking animal' fairy tale, and I reckon most of
his other stuff is better.
|
ianjones
Myrmidon |
posted November 26, 1999 07:04 PM
So we fight among ourselves about relative merits of comics. (and
yes I know I contributed to the debate)
|
King Mob
Operative |
posted November 28, 1999 12:23 AM
first off i'd like to know what the high and mighty rakehell is
doing to change the world?
i think there's a lot to be said for
the smaller acts of disobedience, huge ones get you killed or
incarcerated while the smaller ones tend to spread the idea.
i've taken to wearing a t-shirt i made that labels me an
"ontological terrorist", it's worth it just to see the confusion on
their faces when they ask me what it means.
i've made my own
shoes primarily out of duct and electrical tape, i yell at and beat
garbage which has no means of defending itself. more importantly i'm
always asking people why i have to put up with this shit and when
they say that they are just following orders doing their job i ask
them why again.
|
Citizen Smith
Operative |
posted November 28, 1999 02:35 AM
The fact that everyone is sitting around and discussing this points
to one thing: no-one is doing Jack Shit. Can anyone here honestly
reply that their lives do not revolve around some kind of
Governmental/Capitalist/Media/Protestant Work Ethic control? Because
if you can I'd sure like to know how a) you can afford the Internet
and b) why you're basing your life around a comic book published by
one of the biggest media groups on the planet.
And if you give me
any shit about subverting from within I swear I will just break down
and laugh until I piss myself.
|
Jackie Susann
Operative |
posted November 28, 1999 02:57 AM
Smith, prepare to piss yourself. Because we live in a capitalist
society, and, as revolutionaries have known for centuries, you can't
just arbitrarily step outside it. Nobody's claiming to be 'outside'
existing power relations; we're talking about how we can go about
changing them. Saying we can't because we're caught up in them is
just senseless - unless you expect God to change them for us.
|
Citizen Smith
Operative |
posted November 28, 1999 03:02 AM
Jackie, exactly what do you expect from a revolution?
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Jackie Susann
Operative |
posted November 28, 1999 03:29 AM
What, in 25 words or less?
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Nick
Myrmidon |
posted November 28, 1999 03:34 AM
Fair question.
|
Jackie Susann
Operative |
posted November 28, 1999 04:36 AM
I'm sorry, I just think the question covers so much ground it's all
but impossible to even begin to respond to. But, if this at all
addresses what you wanted to know, my ideas about revolution are
influenced largely by Italian marxism (the autonomy movement of the
'70s), poststructuralist philosophy and class struggle anarchism. I
understand revolution not in the classical Marxist (strictly
economic) sense, but as the struggle to reinvent all the power
relations that pervade our lives so as to allow greater scope for
establishing lines of flight, following them away from anything that
smells like exploitation and sameness. To this end, I favour
developing critical workers' councils in the here and now; that is,
as many others have said, planting the seeds of the new society in
the shell of the old.
All of this seems very vague, but, again, I don't see how to
address this question in a forum like this without reducing
everything to the vaguest kind of abstraction. People have devoted
entire lives and bodies of work to trying to approach it. If there
were easy answers, well, the world would be a very different place,
wouldn't it?
|
ianjones
Myrmidon |
posted November 28, 1999 07:36 AM
The problem with capitalism is not that its a bad system but that
its not a system for people but a description of the way money
behaves. I like money but I don't need it to be a god.
So my revolution is one thar lets capitalism persist and lets
those people who a genuine psychological need to be obsessed with
money carry on doing it but not to particularly cater to their
needs.
Real comunities can exist within capitalism but they need
promoting, and the food industries inn particular need to be
directed towards meeting real needs rather than driving a market.
All political systems tend to want to control people and promote
immaturity, dependence and internal division. These are
administrative tools rather than ideological processes and they are
endemic and unnecessary. My revolutionary goals are to address
these.
Ideologically I am a sixties yippy. That doesn't matter much. I'm
a fan of cooperativism and mutualism. I've been involved in adult
education, cooperative housing and local environmental politics for
a long time. It doesn't mater what you do as long as you keep
expressing human centred goals and promoting self determinism.
Sorry to be vague and woolly. I'm being brief.
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ianjones
Myrmidon |
posted November 28, 1999 09:55 AM
Furthermore any attempt to change society that does not have a sense
of fun and fantasy has already failed.
This at least is a place were we can discuss our dreams. Thst is
not trivial and it doesn't matter who owns it as a property is a
myth.
[This message has been edited by ianjones (edited November 28,
1999).]
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rakehell
Initiate |
posted November 28, 1999 01:02 PM
King Mob: I'm not trying to come off high and mighty I was trying to
promote discussion, which I did. As for what I do...
I write music, sometimes. Do really political, confrontational
stand-up comedy/ranting. Print and post my own flyers, march and
this summer I'm thinking of taking a couple of months to go and join
protesters at either Jabiluka Uranium mine or one of the massive
logging areas here.
Yeah, it may not be much, but I'm building up. I, mostly - with
some friends helping, have a couple of ideas which are in the works,
the only thing hindering me is the amount of ironing out which needs
to be done due to the highly prosecutable nature of the acts.
So yeah, I do stuff, and it's not more than anyone else could do.
Which is better, doing or sitting on your hands?
Did you participatein International Buy-Nothing Day? Or did you
raise a cynical eyebrow?
Like Grant said to me: Either you're on the bus, or your at the
bus stop checking your watch wondering if you've missed it
|
WiseGuy
Operative |
posted November 28, 1999 04:46 PM
I do what the hell I like.
Remember Arcadia? It was (as far as I'm concerned) all about
articulating the goal of the Invisibles - they want a world in which
everybody, even the bad guys, can live and be happy.
Let's be honest here, the Invisibles is a fiction. It contains
multitudes, a lot of which I believe in, some of which I don't fully
understand, and a couple which I don't like, but am growing to
accept. But it's not a handbook for revolution, it's just the best
comic on the market.
So the way I see it, we figure this stuff out on our own, right?
Let the thing inspire us, and not influence us.
So how many eggs do you want to break? Are you going to choose
them according to some pattern, or leave it in the lap of whatever
gods are cool this century?
Fighting for what you believe in is wonderfully idealistic, and
to be encouraged in everyone, especially in yourself. That's where I
started, and I'm still scrapping away there, 'cause I'm a lot harder
than I thought I was when I started this little war, and we've been
forced to reach a fragile detente at present.
Every time I have a shitty day at work and pass an off-licence,
every time someone mentions my ex-fiancee's name in passing without
realising the psychic damage thoe two syllables still do, every time
I think about my friend Joel, dead at twenty-three after falling
down SOME FUCKING STEPS, I lose a little ground.
It's fucking hard to be invisible - I don't know whether the rest
of you feel the same way. Personally, it scares me that all we're
doing here is creating a nu-cool little quantum family. I'm not a
fashion statement.
I don't need anybody telling me what I should be doing or how I
should be doing it. I don't need anybody telling me what to read,
listen to, wear think say believe in.
I intend to create a revolution in my head, first and foremost,
and then spread the feeling through human contact. I intend to
inspire people to inspire people, like Morrison did for me, and
people did for him.
That's what I'm going to do, anyway. You do what the hell you
like. If it's entertaining, or interesting, tell us about it and
I'll raise a glass to you.
But for Christ's sake, let's not argue about presenting a united
front or planning/plotting/scheming. Let's not get on anybody's
backs about Whether They're Doing Enough. I won't take that crap
from Them, so I'm certainly not going to take it from You (whoever
You might happen to be).
If this some of this comes across as belligerant, humourless,
etc, then Mission Fucking Accomplished. Not everything can be
expressed politely, and some things just aren't funny. This is
serious shit - this is my life.
P.S. As you can tell, irony has taken a back seat today. Shit
happens.
|
Citizen Smith
Operative |
posted November 28, 1999 05:59 PM
And there it is in a nutshell. Rapturous applause for Wiseguy, and I
mean that genuinely. Revolution isn't about guns and anarchy, it
can't be in our society, because you know who'll come off worst?
People like us.
|
Ganesha
Myrmidon |
posted November 28, 1999 09:39 PM
Quite honestly, all this more-revolutionary-than-thou stuff is a bit
of a bore. I've never particularly lost sleep worrying about whether
I'm a 'victim of capitalism' and I'm not about to start. Be nice to
people, watch your karma and 'phone your mother every now and again,
that's what I say...
|
Citizen Smith
Operative |
posted November 28, 1999 10:07 PM
And that, I would say, just about puts the tin hat on the whole
argument.
|
Karen Elliot
Operative |
posted November 29, 1999 03:25 AM
as a postscript i'd like to add that events like the june 18th and
november 30th protests create an arena for many diverse people and
groups to express their ideas to a wider audience. these things
aren't about greens or anarchists or communists but about people
beleiving they can change the world. the revolution should be all
things to all people (hopelessly idealistic i know)
marx said
that the most ironic thing about the bougoise revolution was that it
showed that the world could be changed by a concerted effort of
people. i think it still can.
|
RAIN KING
Initiate |
posted December 02, 1999 05:29 PM
my invisibleness isn't really that pre-meditated, i just try to turn
on those that i can to some of the ideas put forth in the comic.
like many of you, a lot of grant's ideas were already bubbling under
the surface of my normal mode of thinking. i guess the main thing i
try to do is carefully construct an immunity to this rising
corporate culture. this is not an easy task, by any means. the
dominant culture will try to suck you in in every way possible. this
is not to imply that the system is sentient. i find it hard to
believe that an unseen hand controls our destinies from some
underground bunker somewhere! no, the conspiracy i speak of is far
more insidious because it's so subtle. what it all boils down to is
that people (myself included)always tend toward the familiar. if
they do rebel, that act of rebellion eventually gets integrated back
into the current system. this is not to suggest that there is no
hope. just beware of a culture that preaches convience over just
about everything else!
one final thing and then i'll shutup! one
way we can fight the tug-of-war for our mind and souls is by
realizing what it is we truly need to sustain us and keep us happy.
if "whoever gets the most toys wins" is your creed, that's fine. but
what about those of us for whom attaining wealth and power is no
longer a primary reward system? i like grant's idea of a universe
where everyone, including our enemies, are happy. the only problem
is, is it realistic to think that our reality can ever function that
way?
[This message has been edited by RAIN KING (edited December 02,
1999).]
[This message has been edited by RAIN KING (edited December 02,
1999).]
|
Ganesha
Myrmidon |
posted December 02, 1999 05:57 PM
I find karma a good working compromise...
|
Naraoia
Operative |
posted December 02, 1999 06:19 PM
The way to be invisible, IMHO, is not to fight capitalism, nor to
praise it. It is to render unto Caesar anything he asks for and then
laugh in his face when he claims to have all of you. Capitalism has
won and will last forever, probably, BUT ONLY IN THE PLACES IT KNOWS
TO EXIST. Even Marx realized that no system of political economy
could ever affect alienation--people still die, love, fuck and fight
in the worker's paradise. If we manage to keep the parts of
ourselves we actually like free of commercial taint, we still
win--whether this means not dating people based on class
distinctions or working lousy jobs to put food on the table and then
going home and writing epic poems. We live in a society and so we
must be invisible in plain sight... the bastards can't touch the
heart because they've forgotten it exists. I don't want to be King
Mob, shooting perfectly decent people in the face--I'd rather be
Dane, facing realties the material world has forgotten. I laugh a
lot--all the time. That's how I become Invisible.
|
RAIN KING
Initiate |
posted December 03, 1999 08:20 PM
thanks naraoia for the wisdom. maybe i need to learn how to laugh
again. i feel like a part of me has died inside and that i have
become way too intense! i think the zen monks had a similiar notion
concerning humor and the universe. thanks again!
|
RAIN KING
Initiate |
posted December 07, 1999 07:48 PM
this may sound like a stupid question, but what is "ontological
terrorism"? DOES this have anything to do with situationism?
|
Geist
Initiate |
posted December 09, 1999 01:30 AM
Going back to the subject:
Telling people what you think is the
important thing.
It's not that easy as it sounds. In the end
everybody speaks his own language. Patience, endurance and dignity
are good companions.
Most of the time you still fail to make your
point clear.
|
PATricky
Operative |
posted December 09, 1999 02:34 AM
. . . which brings us back to the evolution of language.
It's my belief that it ends & begins with "OUR" ability to
comunicate.
All of us essentially want to enjoy life while it lasts . . .
Most of us at least?
difficulties seem to arise in the gaps between understandings.
What may be invisible to one may be obvius to another . . . sort
of the 5 blind men & the elephant.
|
Naraoia
Operative |
posted December 09, 1999 07:10 PM
I believe communication is impossible for most people--real
communication, I mean. Our heads contain cathedrals of beauty and
wonder and anger and sadness and everything else... and our
languages are forced to dumb that down because if we had a word for
everything we can imagine all the libraries in the world couldn't
hold a single dictionary.
Still, we do our best, and it's the human mission to constantly
push that envelope--to make our imaginings real. The Outer Church
(used as metaphor here) wants a language with fifty-eight letters
(or whatever the number it was) but with only five or six dozen
words--the Invisibles (metaphor again) prefer Key 23, where words
drop away and only visions are possible.
Language, as I see it, is the last battleground possible.
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RAIN KING
Initiate |
posted December 09, 1999 08:27 PM
dammit! i asked the question, "What is ontological terrorism"? i
think King MOB mentioned that he had designed a shirt with the
statement "ontological terrorist" on the front and back. all i'm
asking is for a true definition. it is not as if this does not in
any way relate to the main subject of "invisibleness and how to live
it". but that's o.k. i can take a hint. SOB! SOB!
|
RAIN KING
Initiate |
posted December 09, 1999 08:28 PM
dammit! i asked the question, "What is ontological terrorism"? i
think King MOB mentioned that he had designed a shirt with the
statement "ontological terrorist" on the front and back. all i'm
asking is for a true definition. it is not as if this does not in
any way relate to the main subject of "invisibleness and how to live
it". but that's o.k. i can take a hint. SOB! SOB!
|
Naraoia
Operative |
posted December 10, 1999 07:38 PM
I hate to post in ignorance--it may be a quote from somewhere and
mean something totally different--but my understanding has always
been that ontology has to do with being, so ontological terrorism
would mean making yourself a terrorist without actually doing
terror--a threat, in other words, but not necessarily a violent one.
Which may be a little tame for KM.
If anyone knows better, please let me know!
|
Jackie Susann
Operative |
posted December 10, 1999 09:44 PM
I think it's a reference somewhere between Robert Anton Wilson, who
bills himself, I think, as a guerilla ontologist (meaning he shakes
up preconceived notions of what 'is') and Hakim Bey's ontological
anarchy (meaning something a bit more romantic and frightening than
'mainstream' anarchism's federated workers' councils or right wing
anarcho-individualism). In general, I think it means attacking
ideas, rather than people.
|
bookstore cowboy
Initiate |
posted December 11, 1999 04:45 AM
ontology is the ideas of being, of existence, a branch of
metaphysics. Ontological terrorism, I presume, is an attack on the
very existence of something, perhaps our preconceived ideas, perhaps
our preconceived reality.
Course, ontology gets pretty
complicated when you start asking what these things are
exactly.
|
Loz
Operative |
posted December 11, 1999 11:48 AM
Which would make sense for KM as he had to get away from the killing
thing before his karma exploded in his face.
Though this is one
of the things about the synchronicity of The Invisibles that
irritates me, now that KM has given up shooting people I'm sure he's
not going to have to sneak into any highly-guarded American bases
(how far would ontology have got him at the start of Volume
Two?)
|
Naraoia
Operative |
posted December 11, 1999 06:39 PM
Yum... attacking structures of being... I think that must be it.
Hey, has anyone ever wondered where KM gets his
information/orders? I know Jolly Roger told him about the Mesa, I'm
thinking more here about the Arcadia mission to extract Sade. He
says their next mission is to pull an operative out of the past...
but who gave him that mission? Is there some shadowy Number
One-esque Invisible figure? Or is it just some kind of infranet
pipeline, where people post ideas for things that could be done and
various cells just decide to do it?
|
bookstore cowboy
Initiate |
posted December 11, 1999 09:07 PM
Christsake!! That's a good poit? Who is number One?
Is King Mob
getting the orders or is he creating them himself, making them up? a
cosmic guesser or wiseguy or prankster?
Is, perhaps as I have
begun to suspect, there a massive link there between Sir Miles and
KM, something larger linking the Sides...there are no sides, I can
say that without conscience breaking.
Where do the baddies get
their shit? The archons, whose the logical opposite of the archons
if there's no side at all to the great cosmic coin,
hmmmm?
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Citizen Smith
Operative |
posted December 12, 1999 01:40 AM
In the last couple of issues, KM has been talking a lot about "the
big hoax" - I think we'll find the people who think they are on
certain sides will find their expectations fucked up a
little.
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Naraoia
Operative |
posted December 12, 1999 08:12 PM
About ten minutes after my last post I was glancing through the
latest TPB and saw the bit where KM takes RR to the Invisible
College and I whapped myself on the forehead. It's a
college--obviously they've got bulletin boards and people
staple-gunning flyers for their bands, etc. to them (ha ha--just
kidding). The infranet obviously runs right through there.
Then I remembered I was talking about the Invisibles and I
remembered that whenever something seems to make sense it's
definitely wrong.
A link between KM and Sir Miles? Ooh... I like. "Gideon, I am
your father..." "Oi, Sir, me Dad was an arsefaced git down the
off-license who did me mum for a packet of crisps." Which kind of
messes with the whole Key 23 interrogation drama, don't it?
| |
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