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Author Topic:   On Death and Dying
grant
Operative
posted December 09, 1999 05:00 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for grant   Click Here to Email grant     Edit/Delete Message
got this of a not-so cheesy email forward:

ìThereís this little wave ó does he wave ó whoís bobbing up and down on the ocean, having a great time, and all of the sudden he recognizes heís going to crash into the shore. In this big wide ocean, heís now walking ó moving toward the shore. Heíll be annihilated. He gets so despairing. ëMy God, whatís going to happen to me?í And heís got this sour, despairing look on his face. Along comes a female wave bobbing up and down having a great time. The female wave says to the male wave, ëWhy are you so depressed?í Male says, ëYou donít understand, youíre going to crash into that shore and youíll be nothing.í She says, ëYou donít understand, youíre not a wave, youíre part of the ocean.í Thatís what I believe.î -- a terminally ill Morrie Schwartz, from a Nightline broadcast on dying.

Ganesha
Myrmidon
posted December 09, 1999 07:43 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ganesha     Edit/Delete Message
Hmmm. Sounds a little like Chloe (was it Chloe?) from Fight Club. Did she have amyl nitrate and hardcore porn back at her flat?

grant
Operative
posted December 10, 1999 05:08 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for grant   Click Here to Email grant     Edit/Delete Message
I need to see that movie.

Nick
Myrmidon
posted December 10, 1999 06:31 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Nick   Click Here to Email Nick     Edit/Delete Message
Hmph. This is the kind of thing which doesn't convince me. Yes, you are part of the ocean. However, you are a highly organised part of the ocean, and a great deal of (non-teleological) effort has gone into making what you are. It seems entirely appropriate to worry about the dissolution of the organisational matrix which defines your current self as you, rather than, say, a cloud of steam or a chocolate sundae.

grant
Operative
posted December 11, 1999 01:39 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for grant   Click Here to Email grant     Edit/Delete Message
But what if you are a cloud of steam and a chocolate sundae and have merely forgotten that?
What if you're not dissolving awareness but expanding it?

Nick
Myrmidon
posted December 11, 1999 10:10 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Nick   Click Here to Email Nick     Edit/Delete Message
Then it's going to come as a pleasent surprise, isn't it? In the meantime, though, either you did this to yourself deliberately, so don't second guess the experience, or you didn't, and it'll all be over soon, OR this is the 'real' you, in which case protect it with every tool evolution and science can give you. Or join the discard pile.

[This message has been edited by Nick (edited December 11, 1999).]

Naraoia
Operative
posted December 11, 1999 07:43 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Naraoia   Click Here to Email Naraoia     Edit/Delete Message
We all need to think of death as our ally (yes, Fanny said it, but she was just repeating what shamans have said for fifty thousand years). Either you spend your life paralyzed by the fear of death or you make it your friend and go dancing.

All the same, there's no reason to invite it round for dinner any time soon. Personally, I plan to live forever or die trying.

Nick
Myrmidon
posted December 14, 1999 11:46 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Nick   Click Here to Email Nick     Edit/Delete Message
I'm with you up to a point. But I don't understand why Death is an ally if it does mean End.

There was an interesting thing in Hellblazer a lllloooonnnngggg time ago about it.

I sometimes think that Neil Gaiman didn't do us any favours making Death into a cute goth chick. Death is a force, a happening, maybe a full stop. It does not eat donuts and have sex with comicbook readers. Or at least, not in the obvious ways.

I feel like Tyler Durden: Death is not your friend. You are not walking with the Endless. You are just a bit part, a guy in a red shirt in the early episodes of Star Trek. Learn to play hardball with death, because death will not do you any favours, any more than life.

Johnny7
Operative
posted December 14, 1999 06:15 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Johnny7   Click Here to Email Johnny7     Edit/Delete Message
Nick, I think I remember the Hellblazer issue you're talking about -- #71, where Constantine comes across the skeleton of a dead airman.

I don't remember the exact quote, but it was something like "Death is not your ally, you don't humanize it, and it's not your fucking friend! You don't accept death, you fight it to the last breath!"

"Or else why did you bother in the first place?"

(I had been considering dropping HB at that point, reading that issue -- hell, that one speech, changed my mind.)

JackFrost
Operative
posted December 14, 1999 07:00 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for JackFrost   Click Here to Email JackFrost     Edit/Delete Message
I think Gaiman's depiction of Death was meant to soothe fears about Death's inevitability. Don't worry about death so much, she'll come inevitably, and chances are you might like her. We all die sometime...

I don't think it was meant to say that Death could be your friend, at least while you're alive. I mean, I don't really remember seeing her just hanging out with people, just her brothers and sisters, and her position doesn't really mean that much to them.

Naraoia
Operative
posted December 14, 1999 07:11 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Naraoia   Click Here to Email Naraoia     Edit/Delete Message
"Death is my ally" is an old shamanistic saying, which Lord Fanny uses when she goes up against Quimper in Volume 2, and it deserves a little clarification:

The shamanic idea of the ally is something that starts out as a bitter enemy--and which will never be your friend. It's an ally because if you face it, accept it, learn its patterns and its secrets, you can make use of it. If only, as in this case, by recognizing it when you see it and not shying away.

There are two reasons to make death your ally: one is to make life more sweet. How often do most people think about death? How often do most people think about being alive? Tyler Durden definitely makes an ally of death, as in the car crash scene.

The other reason is to give yourself power over your life by accepting its limitations and then transcending them. Fighting death is pointless, much like fighting taxes. You pay your taxes--and then you turn around and refuse to be identified with your tax bracket. Just as you eventually will die--but for right now, that doesn't have to be the point.

Nobody wants to die. Some of us are so afraid of it we forget to live. That's all. Fanny says "Death is my ally" because Quimper has threatened her with death--she's letting him know he's going to have to try harder.

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