| Author |
Topic: Edith/Barbelith/Messiah??
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70sman
Operative |
posted October 20, 1999 04:07 PM
  
This seems like a fairly obvious point , but just in case you havent
picked up on it --
In issue 6 we learn that Edith is Barbeliths
"Base Tracker" or some such thing (presumably she was connected to
it when she got the hand of glory from the harliquenade), and when
she dies , we see the wall splitting. I suppose this is connectted
to the biblical "rending of the temple viel" when Jesus copped it -
could he have been connected to barbelith? , could Edith be a
messianic figure? could her death indicate some sort of schism? will
she rise again??
Id be interested to hear what you have to make
of all this.
incidently , is Edith the only invisible weve met
who doesnt have a code-name?
|
Tom
Archon |
posted October 20, 1999 05:36 PM
Helga doesn't appear to either, and neither did Billy Chang.
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look!NickWaddam!
Operative |
posted October 20, 1999 05:57 PM
Aaah, but the name Helga does (or at least, did) come with a cover
story. The name Helga puts one in mind of some dizzy, northern
European cliche.
Edith isn't exactly a code name, but it fits with the vaguely
royal theme that ran throughout her cell: Lady Edith, King Mob,
Queen Mab, Tom-o-Bedlam.
Unfortunately, Chang doesn't seem to fit
this idea, but, who gives a shit; I'm just tossing thoughts into the
air right now.
You can connect Jesus to Barbelith if you like. Dane did. It all
depends on the nature of your belief structure. One doesn't have to
make "literal" connections, however. I doubt Jesus will be turning
up in the pages of our favorite comic any time soon (although, I
might be wrong).
I don't know about all this: "Edith is the Base tracker",
business. The Barbelith satellite appeared to be exploring other
time zones before it reverted to "Base Tracker", which could simply
be interpreted as linear time. I am quite happy to be wrong about
this one, however.
[This message has been edited by look!NickWaddam! (edited October
20, 1999).]
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Rev. Jesse
Operative |
posted October 21, 1999 12:48 AM
Tom O'Bedlam is a royal name? Why do you think that?
Since Edith is dead, and we will see her again, I think she fits
well into the dying-rising god myth of Odin, Bacchus, Jesus, Osris,
those Japanese gods, Dream, etc.
-Rev. Jesse
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PATricky
Operative |
posted October 21, 1999 02:33 AM
Seems pretty apparient that Edith is a sort of earthly manafistation
of the Fertility Goddess Ishtar/Innani.
Total Sex-pots who's mates rairly survived (her)
& she goes down to the underworld to fetch her beloved.
The Story is told to BOY durring the American Death Camp story
arc.
Still wonder what statue the "crack" was pointing to after she
died.
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Jackie Susann
Operative |
posted October 21, 1999 04:12 AM
The crack reminds me of the scene in Hellraiser where the woman
solves the puzzle box in hospital and the wall opens up onto hell.
Which I assumed was what was happening here, not necessarily to hell
exactly but certainly the underworld.
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70sman
Operative |
posted October 21, 1999 11:34 AM
hmm .. interestting. Theres definately some big heap symbolism going
on with the wall crack and I automaticly associatted it with the
biblical temple viel - and i still like my theory although it
probably isnt right.
and wasent Changs codename "Billy Brilliant"?
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look!NickWaddam!
Operative |
posted October 21, 1999 01:51 PM
Tom, although I can't remember his exact role in the play, is
definitely a royal, or noble figure, within King Lear.
|
Jack Fear
Myrmidon |
posted October 21, 1999 02:31 PM
"Tom o' Bedlam" is a generic Elizabethan name for a madman.
It is also the identity adopted by Edgar, the legitimate and
loyal son of Lord Gloucester, in order to escape the machinations of
his bastard brother (literally and figuratively), Edmund.
"Bedlam" is a contraction/corruption of "Bethlehem"; the most
famous insane asylum in England was the the Hospital of Our Lady Of
Bethlehem.
But you knew all that.
|
Loz
Operative |
posted October 21, 1999 07:51 PM
Billy was referred to as being 'brilliant' but not in a codename
sense...
|
Johnny7
Operative |
posted October 21, 1999 10:42 PM
I thought Chang's codename was "Brilliant", because of the way the
one caption was worded back in v2#10...
Billy "Brilliant" Chang: walked out of history like a ghost and
was never seen again.
I found it interesting that Chang's nickname (if that is indeed
what it was) was listed there when none of the others were.
|
grant
Operative |
posted October 22, 1999 03:06 AM
I'm not sure the others actually had "code names" as much as magical
names. There's a subtle difference, but it'd explain why they were
on a real-name basis.
I don't think the concept of code-names and revolutionary cells
was quite developed in the 20s yet. (Could be mistaken
there.)
They didn't have the paranoia about ratting each other
out that someone who came of age in a post-Stalin/post-McCarthy era
would.
But people in organized magical societies did take special names
as a sign of their new life in the order.
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PATricky
Operative |
posted October 22, 1999 04:51 AM
Good point Grant . . . ahhhh but for simplier times . . . .
|
70sman
Operative |
posted October 22, 1999 11:32 AM
Ive just realised what a silly arse ive been in not realizing that
the crack in the wall was actually a clever way to show Ediths
pulse. sorry all.
but im not giving up yet -- there still could
be other symbolism there.
|
Jack Fear
Myrmidon |
posted October 22, 1999 02:41 PM
[[But people in organized magical societies did take special names
as a sign of their new life in the order.]]
This is true even in the Judeo-Christian tradition; Catholics
monks and nuns used to take new names, though that is now optional.
Popes still do it. Christ himself gave Simon the new name of Peter,
which means "rock," then punned "On this rock I shall found my
Church."
And in "heathen" countries visited by Christian missionaries, it
was common for newly baptized adult converts to take new names up
until very recently.
Keeping in mind, of course, the Church's early history as a
dissident, fugitive secret society that met in the catacombs of
Rome, it's obvious that the new name was not only symbolic, but
protective: if one were known by a different name in pagan and
Christian circles, it could be hard to tell who was Christian and
who wasn't...
So maybe the "code-name" idea is a bit older than the days of
McCarthyism.
There's an advertising campaign for you--
"The Catholic Church: We were The Invisibles before being
Invisible was cool!"
|
Loz
Operative |
posted October 22, 1999 08:01 PM
Some of the twenties invisibles did have codenames, Mister Skat,
King Mob, Queen Mab.
Before that Invisibles used Latin
sobriquets, Freddy remembers his father arguing with him over
adopting the name Tom A'Bedlam.
What's the difference between
magical names and codenames?
|
Enamon
Initiate |
posted October 22, 1999 11:17 PM
I dont think the names the Invisibles use are codenames. I mean to
me codenames are something you use as a code (hence CODEnames). If
say you and your friends are planning a top secret operation (oh
let's say infiltrate the bottom levels of the bunker under the White
House) and you are using CB (Citizen Band) radios. When you want to
address your friend name Billy Bob you definately wont say "Are you
there Billy Bob?" as someone might be listening in. Instead you
would use codenames such as ViagraBoy or Fishchips. These names are
temporary as you are only using them when you are on a "mission". In
real life however you use your real names, Billy Bob and Bob Billy.
I guess my point is I've always seen codenames as something
temporary. What the Invisibles do is change your name. This name is
permanent until you decide to change it.
|
Johnny Starseed
Operative |
posted October 23, 1999 02:25 AM
Enamon,
You must be psychic! Those two names, ViagraBoy and
Fishchips were the two I was considering before I decided on Johnny
Starseed. What a coinkidink!
|
grant
Operative |
posted October 23, 1999 06:31 AM
Jack Fear sez: >And in "heathen" countries visited by Christian
missionaries, it was common for newly baptized adult converts to
take new names up until very recently.<
Well, actually it's still part of the process.
My confirmation name is "Andrew." This is mainly due to the fact
that, as far as the Vatican is concerned, there is no St. Grant, so
I couldn't use that name. He's a fisherman, a simple worker, the
second apostle and the patron of Greece and Scotland (where my
family has roots).
This version of the new-name idea goes back to St. Paul's
revision of the baptism ritual as more than a purification... it was
a symbolic death and rebirth. (Technically, you don't have a name at
all until you're baptized, depending on who you ask).
Confirmation is basically more of the same, only you're doing it
on your own behalf and they use oil instead of water. And you get
your adult "church name" out of it.
Someone asked the difference between a code name and a magic
name: a magic name comes with more baggage. A code name is a
politically expedient way of referring to someone who has a vested
interest in being unnamed or untraced. A magic name is a sign of
initiation into a larger world, and an indication of your chosen
role in that world.
This is why Tom O'Bedlam makes a cool
codename, but a rather vexed magical name.
|
Jack Fear
Myrmidon |
posted October 25, 1999 02:55 PM
re: Confirmation names--
D'oh! THAT one totally slipped by me...
That's what I get for
being immersed in the faith: I am the proverbial fish who cannot
describe water.
I took the name of Isaac Jogues, a French Jesuit butchered by the
Hurons during the European expansion into what is now Canada. Now
THAT guy had some fucking stones.
|
Topper
Operative |
posted October 26, 1999 05:18 PM
Tom said: "Helga doesn't appear to either, and neither did Billy
Chang."
Au contraire. Billy Chang's real name was Jackie Chan. "Walked
out of history like a ghost and was never seen again." Just like
Jackie's movie career.
I wouldn't call Tom Edith's beloved either. Aren't they cousins?
And Edith said shagging Tom would be incestuous.
Jack Fear: please drop the Catholic Church unless you want me to
start freaking out. Don't put that stuff back in my head, man.
~Topper
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Jack Fear
Myrmidon |
posted October 26, 1999 05:56 PM
The Church and her traditions are a big part of who I am, Topper.
The institutions of Catholicism (more accurately, of American
Catholicism) have scarred a lot of people, I know--and I sympathize.
But I've made my peace with the Church, and it's where I belong. It
works for me: but I recognize that your mileage may vary.
So I'm not going to preach, I'm not going to try to save your
soul, I'm not going to speak for the Church as a whole--relax. But
on the other hand, I'm not going to deny my religious identity just
to make you comfortable--you or any-damn-one else.
Can we agree to be cool with that?
[This message has been edited by Jack Fear (edited October 26,
1999).]
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Zephir
Myrmidon |
posted October 26, 1999 06:19 PM
I don't know if it counts, but it was a sort of alias for Edie, Lady
Manning. Which fits in with all the king and queen stuff.
|
Topper
Operative |
posted October 26, 1999 06:49 PM
Jack, guess I pushed a button with you. I should've used one of
those damn emoticons so you'd know I was kidding. I don't begrudge
your faith - I was making a crack at my own expense.
This reminds me of the time when I was an altar boy and... oh
nevermind.
Take care.
|
Jack Fear
Myrmidon |
posted October 26, 1999 06:55 PM
You, too, Topper.
C'mere, you big lug.
Give me a hug.
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Ganesha
Myrmidon |
posted October 26, 1999 11:52 PM
Awwwww... <dabs away Paltrowesque tear>
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Rocky Raccoon
Initiate |
posted October 27, 1999 11:23 PM
Is it possible Queen Mab and King Mob had code names because they
were active soldiers of anarchy. (I.E. shooting policemen.) The
others don't apart from Freddie because he is moving into the
Invisibles in an almost heredic manner through his father? There is
also the consideration that Freddie and Papa Skat are involved in
The Invisibles from a magical point of view and their alias reflect
their "Alternative" life styles?
Billy Chang is BRILLIANT coz I'm sure he's gonna be the answer to
ALL our questions!
Just some thoughts!
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Jackie Susann
Operative |
posted October 28, 1999 03:11 AM
A link between Billy Chang and John-a-Dreams? Each seems to have
"walked out of history like a ghost," never to be seen again.
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look!NickWaddam!
Operative |
posted October 28, 1999 12:47 PM
Yep, Jackie, that's a good one. I guess we'll just have to wait and
see how that turns out. Oh, and Topper, I see no reason to object to
the use of the word "beloved" in reference to Tom and Ediths'
relationship.
She may not have screwed him, but they share a love
of an incredibly intimate kind (after all they do share each others
thoughts, and he is her "favourite Parisian Pierrot").,
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Ganesha
Myrmidon |
posted October 28, 1999 02:05 PM
And the sacred brother-sister incestuous relationship does appear to
be a minor theme of Grant's cropping up now and again (KM/Gideon
seems to get intimate with sisters in various parallels and then
there's Kill Your Boyfriend, of course).
|
ianjones
Myrmidon |
posted October 28, 1999 10:11 PM
And indeed (commitng a sort of cross thread incest) in Doom Force,
amnd again in Zenith (Brother and Sister super kids stay behind in
Reality 23(?) to activate the bomb).
And I reckon Grant always fancied Vixen.
|
Dr.
Zum
Operative |
posted October 29, 1999 03:17 AM
Naah...
Zenith's Tiger Tom and Tammy were just cousins. They
didn't even get a chance to kiss before they activated the chaos
bomb thingee. However, Zenith did get to shag his mother's clone in
Book 1. DrZ
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ianjones
Myrmidon |
posted October 29, 1999 08:25 PM
Oh yes. ( I wasn't allowed my cousins)
Top Morrison Joke
'He's got his fathers eyes'
'I thought we'd got his fathers
eyes'
I'm sure this occurs twice in different books.
|
Dr.
Zum
Operative |
posted October 29, 1999 10:35 PM
neither was I - perhaps we should swap. I can offer three busty
nordic types. The youngest- 18 looks like Bjork. Don't want to
wander into the shallow end of the gene pool, after all. DrZ
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levon
Operative |
posted October 30, 1999 09:55 PM
I assumed that the statue near the crack was Shiva--you know--the
destroyer. It had extra arms or something, right?
|
Ganesha
Myrmidon |
posted October 30, 1999 11:33 PM
We all have extra arms, levon, not just Shiva. And if they'd
intended it to be him, I expect they'd use the much more
recognisable 'dancing Shiva' image.
|
Shivakti
Initiate |
posted November 01, 1999 07:12 PM
In general, statues of Shiva in human form are very uncommon in
India. He's most often worshipped using the Linga idol, which is
basically an iconized phallus.
Most human statues of Shiva, and the one I think is in this
issue, are of him dancing. This dancing incarnation of Shiva is
called "Nagaraja" or "Nataraja" - both of which mean King of the
mystical Snake People who live under the earth.
Nataraja is assumed to be form Shiva will take when he begins the
Dance of Destruction to end this current Yuga (aeon).
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grant
Operative |
posted November 02, 1999 03:58 PM
What about the old bearded fellow with the trident and the
cobra?
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Ganesha
Myrmidon |
posted November 02, 1999 06:08 PM
Shiva's almost never shown with a beard (unlike his followers). You
must be thinking of Captain Birdseye.
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Zephir
Myrmidon |
posted November 02, 1999 09:51 PM
What we need, is sanctioned cousin exchange programs...
I still think Billy is Mason/chessman/harlequin, for the rec.
Something around the eyes...
|
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